A Royal Enfield forum for the people

[OlBilford]

I would spend the extra money for the Power Commander. They are top of the pile in my opinion, also they have tech support on staff.

Late to the party,but anyway,that’s too bad,because race dynamics is a big company that makes stuff for lots of vehicles...but when you can’t even get proper installation instructions...they certainly do not instill consumer confidence. I suppose the extra $200 for the pc-v is worth it for that alone...I sure would like to see what the powertronic can do tho,in comparison .

[swamp2]

There are not a lot of "canned maps" offered by Dynojet for these bikes , because they are not a popular bike. Honda and Harley... there are TONS of them. Those canned maps are usually map at their facility in Vegas I believe. HOT... Dry ... High altitude Vegas. They are usually not "perfect" , but close enough. The one in the PC-V for the Enfield that you get from them , I believe was made by Hitchcock's or Dynojet UK.... and likely on there untainted with ethanol petrol , and at or near sea level. And by their description of the map , and me looking at it here... it is basically for a stock bike , to make it a little better. The fuel changes are not radical. It's for a stock exhaust system , and a stock or after market filter. An aftermarket filter , installed in the stock air box, will not make all that much of a difference BTW. And the black dot , refers to the colored dot next to the part number . Black meaning export ECU... I believe the Indian domestic ECU's have green dot ? Tim can confirm that , or you can look at your on your bike.

Hey GHG - a question for you... I don't have the PC-V yet but I downloaded the software and loaded that RE map. If I interpret correctly, the numbers in the table represent % change from stock. I'm looking at it and see a lot of numbers that are in the 20-30 range. You commented those changes aren't radical? And these are reportedly for a completely stock bike. That seems like quite a deviation to me but I don't know how these things go. I also see numbers populated in the ignition maps but I'm not sure what those numbers represent. If you have a moment to continue the lesson, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!
Steve

[gashousegorilla]

There are not a lot of "canned maps" offered by Dynojet for these bikes , because they are not a popular bike. Honda and Harley... there are TONS of them. Those canned maps are usually map at their facility in Vegas I believe. HOT... Dry ... High altitude Vegas. They are usually not "perfect" , but close enough. The one in the PC-V for the Enfield that you get from them , I believe was made by Hitchcock's or Dynojet UK.... and likely on there untainted with ethanol petrol , and at or near sea level. And by their description of the map , and me looking at it here... it is basically for a stock bike , to make it a little better. The fuel changes are not radical. It's for a stock exhaust system , and a stock or after market filter. An aftermarket filter , installed in the stock air box, will not make all that much of a difference BTW. And the black dot , refers to the colored dot next to the part number . Black meaning export ECU... I believe the Indian domestic ECU's have green dot ? Tim can confirm that , or you can look at your on your bike.

Hey GHG - a question for you... I don't have the PC-V yet but I downloaded the software and loaded that RE map. If I interpret correctly, the numbers in the table represent % change from stock. I'm looking at it and see a lot of numbers that are in the 20-30 range. You commented those changes aren't radical? And these are reportedly for a completely stock bike. That seems like quite a deviation to me but I don't know how these things go. I also see numbers populated in the ignition maps but I'm not sure what those numbers represent. If you have a moment to continue the lesson, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!
Steve

Yup , you got it Steve. It is a percentage change, either plus or minus , from what they found when they had that bike on a Dyno and made that map. It is a percent of an air fuel ratio change ...

Lets take 15% throttle and 2700 rpm's on that fuel map as an example ... go to the "cell" or little box there where that throttle position and rpm intersect. They have a 30 in there, right ? That area happens to be an acceleration area.. . as you roll on the throttle , on your way up to higher rpm's , is where you want the added power with a richer air fuel ratio. So evidently on that bike they were testing and tuning and setting up the map , they found that spot to be VERY lean. And lets say they wanted an air fuel ratio of 13.2:1... That's a pretty typical number. So the original air fuel ratio that they found was 30 % leaner. Or roughly ... 17.16:1 . THAT is lean man ! LOL ! So whatever they put on that bike really leaned it out there, OR .. it was on the lean side to begin with. I really DO believe that black dot ECU was a Indian domestic market ECU though. It's all about fuel economy and puttering and lugging around at low rev's in India on these bikes. That lowish RPM, and smallish throttle position might be a CRUISE area in India. You can get away with a leaner AFR , with light loads in that situation. For us , we are rolling on the throttle and blasting past that spot on our way up to a higher rpm and wider throttle position in most cases. I think you'll be better off starting out with one of Tim's maps... that would be my guess. Anyway... where ever you see a number in a cell WITHOUT a minus sign next to it, it is fuel added. WITH a minus sign next to it, fuel is removed.

You'll notice in that 0% throttle position , and from 500-1500 rpm's that there are no changes made. And above that, there are also no changes. The 500-1500 area has to do with your start up and idle fuel... throttle closed right ? And minimal rpms. It is typical to see no change there on a canned map. Why ? Because Dynojet instructs the Dyno tuners and people to not mess with that area .... But you can . Why do they ? I think because it has to do with the EPA stuff again and how a bike is tested for emissions. And they figure with mild modifications , that the factory got the mixtures right there. But I can tell ya , these bikes run rich at start up and idle , and more so when you do anything to the intake or exhaust and etc.

From 1500 or 2000 rpm's on up to around 5500 rpm's in the Zero throttle position , is the area where you would work on cleaning up those decel pops. Again typical for then to leave that black in most cases.. especially if they had the stock exhaust on that bike. Say your at higher rpm's , and you close the throttle down to zero %.... that is when it POPS ! on you. The air fuel mixture is either going lean ... in most cases... or rich when that throttle is closed . The air fuel mixture is not correct to light up inside the combustion chamber , but it becomes good enough to light up , inside that hot exhaust pipe and it POPS! off.

With the ignition table it works very similar to the fuel table ... when you see a number in a box, it is the amount of DEGREE'S advance or retard . Again, a minus " -" next to a number would mean the timing was retarded. And again, looking at those changes they made there , you see ALL advance numbers. Crap fuel in India... so conservative timing makes sense to me. You don't want any pinging going on with crap fuel. We can generally get away with more timing advance ... and more power... with our fuel.

[gashousegorilla]

I would spend the extra money for the Power Commander. They are top of the pile in my opinion, also they have tech support on staff.

Late to the party,but anyway,that’s too bad,because race dynamics is a big company that makes stuff for lots of vehicles...but when you can’t even get proper installation instructions...they certainly do not instill consumer confidence. I suppose the extra $200 for the pc-v is worth it for that alone...I sure would like to see what the powertronic can do tho,in comparison .

We actually contacted Race dynamics /powertronics years ago when we were getting into the engine mods. At the time we wanted something that would extend the rev limit past stock. At that time there WAS a PC-V available for the Enfield , and we were using it, but it did not at that time offer the rev extension feature like on many other bikes. Race Dynamics came up with a , what I though as a hoakie idea about grinding off one of the nodules on the rotor... they effect ignition timing . I though that was ridiculous and unneeded. And I didn't like the idea of replacing the entire ECU , with one of their's , when a piggy back would do what we needed to do. I just did not get a good feel about them to be honest. Long story short, Dyno jet came out with a new version of the PC-V, that gave control of timing and rev extension shortly after that, an I was good.

I also don't like the idea of the canned maps that they are now putting in their units. They are most likely mapped in India, on their fuel and etc. They may be better now , overall ? But to me , Dynojet and the PC-V's are the bench mark.

[swamp2]

GHG - thanks (as always) for the prompt response. 2 quick questions - does the number in the fuel table represent a % change in AFR, or a % change in fuel? For instance if stock target AFR is 14.7, a 30% increase in fuel would decrease AFR by 23% to 13.4, but a 30% decrease in AFR by adding fuel would bring it down to 10.3.

2nd question - how does one go about figuring out ignition advance? Just keep bumping it across the board until it pings? Or does autotune figure it out if you have it?

Maybe they're not so quick of questions? Sorry if not!

Steve

[OlBilford]

I would spend the extra money for the Power Commander. They are top of the pile in my opinion, also they have tech support on staff.

Late to the party,but anyway,that’s too bad,because race dynamics is a big company that makes stuff for lots of vehicles...but when you can’t even get proper installation instructions...they certainly do not instill consumer confidence. I suppose the extra $200 for the pc-v is worth it for that alone...I sure would like to see what the powertronic can do tho,in comparison .

We actually contacted Race dynamics /powertronics years ago when we were getting into the engine mods. At the time we wanted something that would extend the rev limit past stock. At that time there WAS a PC-V available for the Enfield , and we were using it, but it did not at that time offer the rev extension feature like on many other bikes. Race Dynamics came up with a , what I though as a hoakie idea about grinding off one of the nodules on the rotor... they effect ignition timing . I though that was ridiculous and unneeded. And I didn't like the idea of replacing the entire ECU , with one of their's , when a piggy back would do what we needed to do. I just did not get a good feel about them to be honest. Long story short, Dyno jet came out with a new version of the PC-V, that gave control of timing and rev extension shortly after that, an I was good.

I also don't like the idea of the canned maps that they are now putting in their units. They are most likely mapped in India, on their fuel and etc. They may be better now , overall ? But to me , Dynojet and the PC-V's are the bench mark.

Yikes! I would NOT feel right about grinding anything off! Hahah id hope they have been back to the ol drawing board since then...

[gashousegorilla]

GHG - thanks (as always) for the prompt response. 2 quick questions - does the number in the fuel table represent a % change in AFR, or a % change in fuel? For instance if stock target AFR is 14.7, a 30% increase in fuel would decrease AFR by 23% to 13.4, but a 30% decrease in AFR by adding fuel would bring it down to 10.3.

2nd question - how does one go about figuring out ignition advance? Just keep bumping it across the board until it pings? Or does autotune figure it out if you have it?

Maybe they're not so quick of questions? Sorry if not!

Steve

D'oh !!! Now I'M getting corn-fused with all that Math Steve ! Hahaha ! No worries . It is a percentage of AFR change. .. either fuel added or taken out. An Air fuel ratio of 14.7:1 would have less fuel in it, compared to a ratio of 13.7:1 . So you could say Less AIR in the 13.7:1 air fuel ratio I guess ? But what we are doing is adding fuel , or taking it out... so it's easier for ME to think in those terms of adding or subtracting fuel. And if you were on a Dyno with a wide band sensor or had a auto tuner with a wide band sensor , you could see what the air fuel fuel started out at , and then after it reached you target ... do the math, and the percentages work out. That is what I have found, and that is what was explained to me and from what I have read.

With the timing, yes.. on a Dyno ,they would advance the timing until the power started to drop off and or it started to ping and then start backing off the timing a couple/ few degree's at a time.

On the road , you would do it by feel and listening for ping.. and then back off a couple/ few degree's at a time.

Altering the timing on these bikes... I have found anyway... is not a MUST do thing. The stock timing doses a decent job of it. Especially if the mod's are not that drastic. A couple / few degrees of advance might help a little ... but you'll be OK if you leave it alone. Things like combustion chamber shape and design , or piston design or compression ratio change play more of a roll. And for things like that !.. I have played with the ignition timing.

[gashousegorilla]

Late to the party,but anyway,that’s too bad,because race dynamics is a big company that makes stuff for lots of vehicles...but when you can’t even get proper installation instructions...they certainly do not instill consumer confidence. I suppose the extra $200 for the pc-v is worth it for that alone...I sure would like to see what the powertronic can do tho,in comparison .

We actually contacted Race dynamics /powertronics years ago when we were getting into the engine mods. At the time we wanted something that would extend the rev limit past stock. At that time there WAS a PC-V available for the Enfield , and we were using it, but it did not at that time offer the rev extension feature like on many other bikes. Race Dynamics came up with a , what I though as a hoakie idea about grinding off one of the nodules on the rotor... they effect ignition timing . I though that was ridiculous and unneeded. And I didn't like the idea of replacing the entire ECU , with one of their's , when a piggy back would do what we needed to do. I just did not get a good feel about them to be honest. Long story short, Dyno jet came out with a new version of the PC-V, that gave control of timing and rev extension shortly after that, an I was good.

I also don't like the idea of the canned maps that they are now putting in their units. They are most likely mapped in India, on their fuel and etc. They may be better now , overall ? But to me , Dynojet and the PC-V's are the bench mark.

Yikes! I would NOT feel right about grinding anything off! Hahah id hope they have been back to the ol drawing board since then...

Yeah ... it's kind of a fugazy thing to have to do in this day and age I figured ? A low tech fix. You know, instead of just altering the signals on crank position sensor and ignition coils.

And this statement is just a fat out lie on their web site and can be dangerous to your motor.....

"Higher Rev-limit

The standard rev-limit not only kills power, it kills the mood too. PowerTRONIC’s preset 12,000rpm rev-limit lets you unleash the power within. With a wider powerband, higher in-gear speeds and increased top end performance, the revised rev-limit helps in reaching higher top speeds, attacking corners harder, eliminating unnecessary up-ships and keeping the engine in the powerband while downshifting. For race setups, PowerTRONIC supports upto 15,000rpm "


Believe me ... you do NOT want to rev one of these motor's up to TWELVE THOUSAND RPMS ! ? Hahaha ! Crazy in this case man ! This engine is no where near being designed for that kind of RPM. And they could probably NEVER reach THAT high of an RPM anyway. Just because one CAN rev a motor higher, does not mean that you should . With a near stock bike with just an intake and exhaust change , the maximum power you are going to make is well below what the stock rev limiter is set to. So in other words... let say your max power comes in at around 4800-5000 rpm's. And that is about right with some minor mods . Above that RPM , your power starts to DROP. So your basically over revving the motor and LOOSING power. With Absolutely NO gain. If you backed off the throttle and kept it in that peak HP range , you would go faster ! And not put unnecessary wear on to the engine. That statement they have there is just stupid.


I can tell you, that with a whole bunch more engine mods , I never NEEDED more then 6200-6500 rpms. And you only hit that high of an rpm when you are REALLY ON the throttle . My PEAK HP numbers are usually around 5800 rpms... and I just rev it THAT high, so when I shift , my rpms drop back down to that 5800 area. And that is just for real " hot roding" around stuff" when I'm in the mood. But you don't need to rev it THAT high all the time. If you start revving one of THESE motor's above 6500 rpm's regularly ? That bottom end ain't gonna last very long... A senseable rev limit is a good thing, and it will prevent someone from getting Stupid. Like I can at times get ? Hahaha ! Really though , no need in the world to Rev it as high as they suggest. You won't gain power and your'll damage the motor...

[swamp2]

D'oh !!! Now I'M getting corn-fused with all that Math Steve ! Hahaha ! No worries . It is a percentage of AFR change. .. either fuel added or taken out. An Air fuel ratio of 14.7:1 would have less fuel in it, compared to a ratio of 13.7:1 . So you could say Less AIR in the 13.7:1 air fuel ratio I guess ? But what we are doing is adding fuel , or taking it out... so it's easier for ME to think in those terms of adding or subtracting fuel. And if you were on a Dyno with a wide band sensor or had a auto tuner with a wide band sensor , you could see what the air fuel fuel started out at , and then after it reached you target ... do the math, and the percentages work out. That is what I have found, and that is what was explained to me and from what I have read.

Yeah I'm probably thinking about this more than is needed. But here's my interpretation...

At any given point for throttle position and RPM lets assume closed loop manufacturer target AFR is 14.7. So 14.7 parts air for 1 part of gas. If we add say 30% fuel to the 1 part already there presumably the amount of air stays the same at the same RPM. So we now have 14.7 parts air for 1.3 parts of gas, making the new air/fuel ratio 14.7/1.3 = 11.3. The AFR reduction (14.7-11.3) is 3.4, which is a drop of 3.4/14.7 = 23% for an increase of 30% of fuel - at that particular point in the map.

That's the way I'm understanding it anyway. That certainly doesn't mean it's correct!

[gashousegorilla]

Ummmm ? .... I think I'm liking YOUR Math better Steve ! Hahaha ! That could very well be the case..? I like it ! Not over thinking it at all. I think it's cool and interesting as hell to figure all this stuff out.